Wednesday, May 31, 2017
A VIN tag doesn't make a car....
Read a disturbing article in Musclecar Review the other day. Don't get me wrong, I love the magazine, and I correspond with the editor all the time, and he publishes my stuff occasionally. I guess I should have said the subject matter of the article was disturbing. Someone had found the remains of a "Bullitt" Mustang in a junkyard in Mexico. To call this rusting, engineless,transmissionless, inteirorless, hulk a "basket case" would have been an understatement. However, the cowl and the VIN tag were intact, and upon running a Marti report and checking with Ford historical services, it was verified as one of the cars used in the movie. The new owner excitedly said he was going to restore it to it's former glory. How? I mean all that's left of the original car is the VIN tag and part of the rusting body shell!! I know Dynacorn and other companies sell complete Mustang bodies ( they also sell Camaros, '55-57 Chevys, and other stuff. ). I know you can buy replacement front and rear subframes, and all the interior trim. It probably wouldn't be too hard to find a 390 V8 and a Top-Loader 4-speed with 1967 or 68 date codes. But in reality-if he follows through on the project he's going to have a completely new car built around an old VIN tag. Does that make it "original?" No, because virtually nothing on the car is original!! Does that make it restored? I don't think so-because again-how much of the original vehicle was "restored?" The dash pad, the firewall and the left front fender? The editor asked it another way-which I think is relevant. The Smithsonian supposedley has George Washington's ax-the one he chopped down the Cherry Tree with. It looks pretty damn good for being 200+ years old. That's because it's been "restored" several times since 1757 or whenever young George's father confronted him about the tree. If the handle's been refinished or replaced several times and the head has been re-sharpened or replaced several times, how much of the original ax exists? If you bought Jimi Hendrix's guitar and the neck had been replaced and the strings had been replaced, and the electronic pickups had been replaced-how much of the original Fender Stratocaster is left? Doubtless, since you can prove Hendrix's ownership that makes it a valuable piece of rock-n-roll history; but it still doesn't make it original. I think this opens a "Pandora's Box" that's going to cause a lot of lawsuits over high-end car sales. I've talked many times about the Judge I had in high school. Think about this scenario. What if, Instead of my parents forcing me to sell it after losing my drvier's liscence, I kept it several more years and then totalled it in the early 80's. I buy the wreck from the insurance company. I put the RAIII engine and 4-speed in plastic bags in my garage. The crumpled body sits in my backyard for years. I just can't bring myself to haul it to the crusher. Then the '90's happen and musclecar values go into the stratosphere. I go buy a '69 LeMans that's in pretty good shape. I put my VIN tag on it, install the RAIII and the Muncie tranny and get the stripes and spoilers and maybe a new Endura front bumper from Year One or the Goat Farm. I have all my original paperwork, and the numbers on the engine and tranny match. If the prospective buyer contacts Pontiac Historical Services with the VIN and the casting numbers on the block, heads and tranny-it's going to come back as a for-real GTO Judge. I sell it for megabucks. Has the buyer got an original numbers matching RAIII / 4-speed Judge? Certianly with the RAIII heart there's some Judge DNA in there, but it's not the same car that rolled off the assembly line in 1969 and that I bought in 1978!! How would the buyer prove this? And if he could-let's say for arguments sake-my neighbors told him what I did and he decides to sue me for fraud and get his money back. If I had been smart enough to keep the salvage title of my car and re-register the cobbled up one as "rebuilt" with that title and the original VIN tag-the guy wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court. The Judge- ( Pun Intended ) would rule that he knowingly and willingly bought a "rebuilt" car and that since it did have the proper VIN and corresponding powertrain numbers, and especially since Pontiac Historical services verified the VIN, no crime was committed. The guy would be out whatever dollar amount I fleeced him for and I laugh all the way to the bank. Could the guy sell the car to someone else and recoup his investment? Probably, but the point I'm making is the car still isn't original, and the guy did kinda get screwed, regardless of the court's ruling!! You can see how this kind of stuff would really complicate things for collectors. A buddy of mine had a 440 / Six-Pack Super Bee in high school. One night he missed a shift and grenaded the engine. I mean, rods out the side of the block, grenaded. We went to a junkyard and got a low-mileage 440 out of a wrecked '73 Chrysler Imperial for $250 and put that in the car. The only reason he did that instead of taking a FREE 383 from another buddy was the intake manifolds on "B" and "RB" engines don't interchange and he wanted to keep the Tri-Power on it. He drove it several more years and then sold it. Wherever that car is now-if it hasn't been wrecked or extensively modified-it's 99% original except for the engine!! Back to the car in the article-I don't think a VIN tag makes a car, escpecially if everything on the car has been replaced. He can claim some link to the Movie, and has an interesting story to go with the car if or when he sells it, but Original? No way. That's where the old saying "Buyer Beware" really rings true. Mastermind
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Well this topic picks a scab! Being the aged musclecar enthusiast at heart I find it nauseating to watch select cars at auction go hyper-silly bids/purchases. You and I both know that the parts, technical specs, finish info and all related sundries are available to "create" a perfect 70-1 HEMI 'Cuda conv. So perfect even the most revered experts couldn't tell it from any other known car. All in perhaps $100K, give or take a few, and it could win any show. What's it worth? Maybe $125-150K? So the logic (or lack of) means that PAPER is worth in excess of $1M. Yeah, MILLION. Seriously? Watched a 71 get bid to over $3M and the guy turned it down! Assuming I had that kind of jack to dump on a car it surely wouldn't be a "Hamtramck Dumpster" with a conv top and kool engine. I could shag a Duesenberg Murphy rdstr and a 34 Packard 12, AND have enough change left over to insure them both for a decade! You think a Duesenberg will ever be some run-of-the-mill old car again? Count me in! I'll take the 1st one that's ONLY worth $100K. If I bought a solid no rust body shell, built by GM to exact standards of the day (let's say 70-73 Firebird) Used that shell to restore an uber rare RAIV T/A, yet all the rest of the car's "heart" and paper are still intact, did I build a clone? A tribute? A copy? A fraud? I think I RESTORED THE CAR to the most exacting standard possible. Some feel that it's a fraud and it's better to by "Asian" floors, qtr panels, inner fenders, even rear frame rails vs using EXACTLY what GM used to build them in the 1st place. The question is this; where does the car begin and where does it end? Paper? Engine? Frame? Tags? Are we better off in our world of this shit to simply scrap the RAIV T/A and say another one's gone? Is it really a fraud to go the extra mile and resurect it to as-new better than the "restoration" using imported sheet metal? Full disclosure to a prospect is always the right thing to do. Some Ferarri models have been subjected to new coachwork by certified marque specialists some time after their "birth", some high end classics were sent back and had their body swapped in favor of new styles, also very common in the Rolls/Bently world. Doesn't "cost" a dime's difference at the top of those scrotum poles. Are our musclecars that much less? Your thoughts welcomed...
ReplyDeleteHey thanks for reading! You make some very good points and I agree with you. I'll probably do a follow-up post. I was talking to a guy the other day who was trying to verify a DKM "Macho T/A" before buying it. He was upset because Pontiac Historical Services could only tell him that it was a 1978 Trans-Am with T-Tops and the W72 / WS6 performance package. I told him to contact Dennis Mecham-the father of the "Macho T/A"-who has extensive records of every car they modified and sold. Oddly-GM wouldn't give Mecham and MSO-Manufacturer's Certificate of Originality-which is why "Machos" weren't allowed to be sold in Colorado and a few other states. Yet they gave one to George Hurst for the Hurst/Olds models. Does that make the Machos worth less? What about other rare, dealer-modified cars Like Yenko Camaros or Baldwin-Motion Camaros and Corvettes or Mr Norm's Mopars? Yenko used 396 Camaros and got L72 427 short-blocks out of his parts dept and put the heads,carb and intake,distributor,exhaust etc from the 396 on them to create his 427 Camaros and Chevelles. So the vin on a Yenko car will show it's a 396 model. So your right in saying that it's sad that paperwork weighs so heavily on a car's value. On the other hand I was reading about someone who found a '71 Barracuda that had been registered to Elvis Presley. Apparently Elvis bought it on a whim while on tour in Ohio and only kept it a few months before selling it. Subsequent owners wisely kept the original paperwork. It was a 340 'Cuda with a Torqueflite-nothing special-but the fact that the guy had a Tenessee title with the VIN that said the owner was Elvis Aron Presley made it worth a mint. Same thing for an old FLH Harley that someone bought in Montana-the title and the registration were in the name Robert Craig Kneival-"Evel" Kneival himself. I knew this would open a can of worms and make some people angry, but I felt it had to be addressed. What can you do to verify a 40 or 50 year old car other than a paper trail, if there is one? Like you said-maybe GM,Ford and Chrysler can get together and have some kind of certification program. Right now-it will cost major bucks-but the Porsche factory will restore and certify any Porsche 356,911 or 914 for you. You have to ship the car to Germany and wait a few months, but If you want say-a perfect 1967 911S-I can't think of a better way to get one. I know for a while Nissan was offering a similar service for old 240Z's. It's a tough question that has no pat answer. Anyhow thanks for reading and feel free to chime in anytime!
DeleteI should disclose that I'm in the business, I restore for a living. I specialize in the big American Classics and focus heavily on 32-34 Packard models. Not exclusive, also doing a J-Duesy and a 14 Woods. I've watched the industry for nearly 4 decades as a professional, longer out of personal interest. I knew that serious muscle would eventually have it's "day in the sun" with regard to interest and resulting values. Once that happens all manner of folk come from every nook and cranny, many of them haters or justice warriors out to "save" what they perceive as victims. The majority of those have no car, no knowledge, essentially parrots of the latest magazine or TV show. They're in every segment of enthusiast automobiles you can imagine. Somewhere in the 90s this whole "numbers match" thing took root and it seems to try being applied to anything. I've done more than a dozen full restos on 33-4 Packards and not single one had "matching numbers". The axles, trans, engine, chassis and steering box all have a series of numbers that can be as many as 800-1000 apart (i.e. 372907 on the chassis, 372398 on the engine, maybe 371988 on the front axle). Yet I've heard a time or 10 that someone has one that's "...all numbers matching..," which is bull. Some early cars are much closer and usually on the specials or coachbuilt versions only. Yet back to "our" cars, OEMs had to number things for warranty claims and record keeping. Their very nature was an endangered species the moment it drove away from the agency, all that power and related support demanded a level of abuse. Have you noticed the "day 2" thing going on? I'm going that way with my GTO by using mags (have ETs and Ansens to choose from), a Hurst 'T' handle, some pinstriping, mufflers, and of course the gratuitous speed equipment stickers under the decklid. Not sure I want to add aftermarket gauges even though so many did. I'm looking fwd to the comments once it's up and done, hearing how some remember things the way they really were. I'm Metro Detroit born n bred, I saw this going on in my youth, drooled over too many as I awaited being a legal driver. Maybe life was easier, not taken so serious then, just the rumble of compression and putting our share of tire smoke in the air. As a child I watched the MOPAR muscle head south by the traincar load every day around noon from the seat of my bike. My days may be spent in the rarified air of American Classics but I'll always be fond of Detroit muscle of the past, the present maybe not so much. I can't swap a plug read for a laptop...(!) Thanks again.
ReplyDeleteI don't have the experience you guys have but I think papers play a huge role on the price of a car. Cars are only original the day they come out of the dealership, no matter how well restored the car is, it could be "as original" but no original.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise it would be very easy to buy an old Corvette from Copart, get it restored and say it original.
Would be nice to have a rating of percentage of original parts contained.
DeleteCertainly I would rather see an original, numbers matching Ram Air III engine etc and other remnants as the vin tag be reconstructed than parted out. Keeps the population up, and could and should be accompanied by a percentage of original parts rating.
Especially when involving an original engine.